Comments on: Voorwerpen and more : Science in the public eye 2 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/ The Universe as seen from the perspective of an astronomical researcher, presenter and writer. Thu, 08 Jul 2010 19:50:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Michael Nielsen » Biweekly links for 10/23/2009 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-102851 Michael Nielsen » Biweekly links for 10/23/2009 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:53:16 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-102851 [...] Chris Lintott’s Universe » Voorwerpen and more : Science in the public eye 2 [...] [...] Chris Lintott’s Universe » Voorwerpen and more : Science in the public eye 2 [...]

]]> By: Waveney http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-83939 Waveney Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:12:26 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-83939 Eric, I will give some concrete value to the effect of the Voorwerp Press Release on the Merger progress. Over the last few days some 700 people signed up to the Merger Hunt, as a group they had the shortest attention span of any identifiable group joining the hunt. But, and its a big But, a few of them have done an awful lot of work. At least 50,000 clicks are attributable to this event, that is more than 1 click per image (or a Kevin Month in Chris's terminology). We are still seeing 1,500 to 2,000 more clicks a day than before the Press Release. Those new people will undoubtedly go on the GZ2, GZ3 and beyond. Eric,

I will give some concrete value to the effect of the Voorwerp Press Release on the Merger progress. Over the last few days some 700 people signed up to the Merger Hunt, as a group they had the shortest attention span of any identifiable group joining the hunt. But, and its a big But, a few of them have done an awful lot of work. At least 50,000 clicks are attributable to this event, that is more than 1 click per image (or a Kevin Month in Chris’s terminology). We are still seeing 1,500 to 2,000 more clicks a day than before the Press Release. Those new people will undoubtedly go on the GZ2, GZ3 and beyond.

]]> By: Centauri Dreams » Blog Archive » On Science and Public Scrutiny http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-82705 Centauri Dreams » Blog Archive » On Science and Public Scrutiny Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:08:45 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-82705 [...] Hanny’s Voorwerp, that odd object discovered by Dutch school teacher Hanny van Arkel via the Galaxy Zoo project, has provoked press reaction all over the world. And Chris Lintott, a key player in the Galaxy Zoo’s ongoing survey of galaxies, notes the uneasiness he feels in discussing theories about the object before the paper that attempts to explain it has even gone through peer review. The speed with which the Internet allows science to be discussed can be disconcerting, as Lintott makes clear in the latest edition of the Space Carnival, conducted this week by David Chandler at his Next Generation site. [...] [...] Hanny’s Voorwerp, that odd object discovered by Dutch school teacher Hanny van Arkel via the Galaxy Zoo project, has provoked press reaction all over the world. And Chris Lintott, a key player in the Galaxy Zoo’s ongoing survey of galaxies, notes the uneasiness he feels in discussing theories about the object before the paper that attempts to explain it has even gone through peer review. The speed with which the Internet allows science to be discussed can be disconcerting, as Lintott makes clear in the latest edition of the Space Carnival, conducted this week by David Chandler at his Next Generation site. [...]

]]> By: EricFDiaz http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-82152 EricFDiaz Fri, 15 Aug 2008 01:59:15 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-82152 Point well taken, Nereid. And as I get to know some of the newer members, I see that I was wrong in my first comment and that they truly do have have a genuine interest and curiosity about the universe in which we live. It is very exciting to me to see such enthusiasm in such a diverse amalgamation of people. I've even noticed that we have some younger astronomers (i.e. teenagers) in our midst, which just thrills me to no end! You must forgive the cynicism of a middle-aged man who has seen more in his years on this planet than he would have liked. I stand corrected. ;-) Point well taken, Nereid. And as I get to know some of the newer members, I see that I was wrong in my first comment and that they truly do have have a genuine interest and curiosity about the universe in which we live. It is very exciting to me to see such enthusiasm in such a diverse amalgamation of people. I’ve even noticed that we have some younger astronomers (i.e. teenagers) in our midst, which just thrills me to no end! You must forgive the cynicism of a middle-aged man who has seen more in his years on this planet than he would have liked. I stand corrected. ;-)

]]> By: Nereid http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-82116 Nereid Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:34:18 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-82116 Eric, With all due respect, I think you are missing a great many parts of this social (sociological?) phenomenon. There are tens of thousands, possibly millions, of people who did well in high school math and science, went on to get a good (Bachelors) degree that included math and physics (and, maybe, astronomy), but ended up earning their crust in jobs that used almost none of their education in these areas. Too, there are millions who are entranced by the night sky, who click on one part or another of the Hubblesite, who have APOD (Astronomy Picture of the Day) as their homepage in their browser, who ... Their joy and delight at the scientific discoveries from any number of astronomy/cosmology/planetary science projects is immense; their interest in following alone and joining in is unarguable. For a vignette, ask how many people installed SETI@Home, or who today run Einstein@home, or any of the dozens of BOINC-based grid computing apps. As someone in the GZ Forum wrote in an Italian blog, GZ is unique in that it allows this enormous pool of passion to be directed to actually *doing* some science, in a Web2.0 way. And this comes through, loud and clear, in the GZ Forum posts on why newbies joined GZ. Discovering a Voorwerp is undoubtedly great; discovering - again - the innocent visual delights of the universe, courtesy of SDSS images, is its own reward. (BTW, do you know what the average daily number of hits on just the main APOD webpage is (not counting all the mirror sites)? Shy of a million, but not by much.) Eric,

With all due respect, I think you are missing a great many parts of this social (sociological?) phenomenon.

There are tens of thousands, possibly millions, of people who did well in high school math and science, went on to get a good (Bachelors) degree that included math and physics (and, maybe, astronomy), but ended up earning their crust in jobs that used almost none of their education in these areas.

Too, there are millions who are entranced by the night sky, who click on one part or another of the Hubblesite, who have APOD (Astronomy Picture of the Day) as their homepage in their browser, who … Their joy and delight at the scientific discoveries from any number of astronomy/cosmology/planetary science projects is immense; their interest in following alone and joining in is unarguable. For a vignette, ask how many people installed SETI@Home, or who today run Einstein@home, or any of the dozens of BOINC-based grid computing apps.

As someone in the GZ Forum wrote in an Italian blog, GZ is unique in that it allows this enormous pool of passion to be directed to actually *doing* some science, in a Web2.0 way. And this comes through, loud and clear, in the GZ Forum posts on why newbies joined GZ.

Discovering a Voorwerp is undoubtedly great; discovering – again – the innocent visual delights of the universe, courtesy of SDSS images, is its own reward.

(BTW, do you know what the average daily number of hits on just the main APOD webpage is (not counting all the mirror sites)? Shy of a million, but not by much.)

]]> By: EricFDiaz http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-81807 EricFDiaz Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:52:32 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-81807 It is one of those ironies of modern science in the media that make the intent of your blog, Chris contrary to the message that the Voorwerp has sent to the world. On the one hand you speak of the disagreement and debate which constitutes real science. But the tacit message that has been delivered, whether unwittingly or not, is that the methodical, hard work done by an individual or group of individuals and the intelligent discussion and often heated debate that ensues from the results of that hard work, isn't what really counts in the scientific community, but rather serendipity and just plain dumb luck is what really matters--which is what the Voorwerp, in point of fact, symbolizes. Do you think that the recent influx of new members to Galaxy Zoo is due to the fact that all of these people have been some how magically inspired to do the difficult and many times tedious, thankless work required in properly classifying galaxies? Or is it more likely that the publicity of the Voorwerp has given the people who have recently joined Galaxy Zoo the misconceived impression that they too can get lucky, just like Hanny, and can become world famous over night? I'm sure you're familiar with the medieval philosophical precept "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate" otherwise known as Occam's razor. Now, which do you think is the case? Where the Voorwerp may have temporarily benefited Galaxy Zoo in terms of increased membership, in the long run, the questions that must be asked are, has quality been sacrificed for quantity and could this blunder be the beginning of the end for Galaxy Zoo. It is one of those ironies of modern science in the media that make the intent of your blog, Chris contrary to the message that the Voorwerp has sent to the world. On the one hand you speak of the disagreement and debate which constitutes real science. But the tacit message that has been delivered, whether unwittingly or not, is that the methodical, hard work done by an individual or group of individuals and the intelligent discussion and often heated debate that ensues from the results of that hard work, isn’t what really counts in the scientific community, but rather serendipity and just plain dumb luck is what really matters–which is what the Voorwerp, in point of fact, symbolizes.

Do you think that the recent influx of new members to Galaxy Zoo is due to the fact that all of these people have been some how magically inspired to do the difficult and many times tedious, thankless work required in properly classifying galaxies? Or is it more likely that the publicity of the Voorwerp has given the people who have recently joined Galaxy Zoo the misconceived impression that they too can get lucky, just like Hanny, and can become world famous over night? I’m sure you’re familiar with the medieval philosophical precept “Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate” otherwise known as Occam’s razor. Now, which do you think is the case?

Where the Voorwerp may have temporarily benefited Galaxy Zoo in terms of increased membership, in the long run, the questions that must be asked are, has quality been sacrificed for quantity and could this blunder be the beginning of the end for Galaxy Zoo.

]]> By: NGC3314 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-80458 NGC3314 Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:42:59 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-80458 Yeah, what Chris said. I spent some time musing to the CNN writer about the "new" world of public science. The interests of the scientists and f reporters push them in opposite directions, and the traditional balance is being reworked when there s a project which makes a point of playing out as much of its workings as possible right our there on the forum and blog. This means that an enterprising reporter can get lots of details at any time, and they like exclusives and scoops. On the other hand, the people organizing the research would like the story to go out when there are enough results to have a nice, well-argued package (as in "suitable for a research paper"). When that happens, the media appetite not to be second with the story means there is a gain in pubic education if it goes out to everybody at once (hence a formal press release). We were dealing with both modes here, and there may be something to be learned for other practitioners of public-based science. Yeah, what Chris said. I spent some time musing to the CNN writer about the “new” world of public science. The interests of the scientists and f reporters push them in opposite directions, and the traditional balance is being reworked when there s a project which makes a point of playing out as much of its workings as possible right our there on the forum and blog. This means that an enterprising reporter can get lots of details at any time, and they like exclusives and scoops. On the other hand, the people organizing the research would like the story to go out when there are enough results to have a nice, well-argued package (as in “suitable for a research paper”). When that happens, the media appetite not to be second with the story means there is a gain in pubic education if it goes out to everybody at once (hence a formal press release). We were dealing with both modes here, and there may be something to be learned for other practitioners of public-based science.

]]> By: madge http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-80327 madge Sat, 09 Aug 2008 07:41:16 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-80327 I like the fact we can all participate in the "What -the-heck-is-that-thing?" speculation. It's great to bounce ideas (however "out there" they might be) around and be party to the experts ideas theories and hypotheses. Thinking out loud can be very illuminating. The press will always be with us and will never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Keep up the good work Chris. I like the fact we can all participate in the “What -the-heck-is-that-thing?” speculation. It’s great to bounce ideas (however “out there” they might be) around and be party to the experts ideas theories and hypotheses. Thinking out loud can be very illuminating. The press will always be with us and will never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Keep up the good work Chris.

]]> By: diaswa http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-80317 diaswa Sat, 09 Aug 2008 05:13:40 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-80317 Hi Chris, I see your points about the media, but consider other points-of-view for a moment. The "public", as represented by the various media functions, in general supply the support necessary to do science in some form (taxes, votes, grants, etc.), so are they not due some explaination as to what exciting science thing has just happened ? Also consider children, who reportedly are not all that interested in science and mathematics these days. What must some of Hanny's students think of their cool teacher and what a great teaching moment the Voorverp presents. So is it not a reasonable burden on those doing science to add some extra duty explaining what the latest excitement is all about ? Well, just some thoughts. Glad to hear GZ2 is near at hand. Hopefully, I will be done with my re-roofing project shortly and can re-join in the fun. Regards, Bill Hi Chris,

I see your points about the media, but consider other points-of-view for a moment.

The “public”, as represented by the various media functions, in general supply the support necessary to do science in some form (taxes, votes, grants, etc.), so are they not due some explaination as to what exciting science thing has just happened ?

Also consider children, who reportedly are not all that interested in science and mathematics these days. What must some of Hanny’s students think of their cool teacher and what a great teaching moment the Voorverp presents. So is it not a reasonable burden on those doing science to add some extra duty explaining what the latest excitement is all about ?

Well, just some thoughts.

Glad to hear GZ2 is near at hand.

Hopefully, I will be done with my re-roofing project shortly and can re-join in the fun.

Regards,

Bill

]]> By: Curtis W. Garrett http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/comment-page-1/#comment-80315 Curtis W. Garrett Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:29:01 +0000 http://chrislintott.net/2008/08/08/voorwerpen-and-more-science-in-the-public-eye-2/#comment-80315 GZ is both a new way to do science and a repackage of the same old way. GZ is new in that we are giving many people the available data and asking for their best judgement based on that data and the very specific training they have been given. GZ is the same old way in that many people based on their training and data available give their best judgement and then those are examined to state the best current understanding. The speed and bandwidth of today's communication has allowed this to happen. The Forum has become a place to discuss these judgements. As with any scientific discussions, they not only refine the judgements but also lead to learning and more discerning thought on the part of the participants. This information is used by Chris and others along with information gathered elsewhere to present to the established vetting process new theories and discoveries. Those of us involved are happy to be a part of this process. The feedback that Chris provides to us directly impacts our satisfaction and encourages more participation on our part. GZ is both a new way to do science and a repackage of the same old way. GZ is new in that we are giving many people the available data and asking for their best judgement based on that data and the very specific training they have been given. GZ is the same old way in that many people based on their training and data available give their best judgement and then those are examined to state the best current understanding. The speed and bandwidth of today’s communication has allowed this to happen. The Forum has become a place to discuss these judgements. As with any scientific discussions, they not only refine the judgements but also lead to learning and more discerning thought on the part of the participants. This information is used by Chris and others along with information gathered elsewhere to present to the established vetting process new theories and discoveries.

Those of us involved are happy to be a part of this process. The feedback that Chris provides to us directly impacts our satisfaction and encourages more participation on our part.

]]>